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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: Chico, CA
Thanks for the heads up, I will stock up on it now.

Josh, my secret for great latkes was to put a bit of bacon grease on the pan when I cooked them at home (never at temple of course). Is there such a thing as tofu bacon?

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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:04 am 
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jimbo wrote:
Da Bull Man wrote:
I vote that they quit putting corn in cars and start feeding pigs! :roll:


Totally agree. 25% of the US corn crop goes up in flames as e 10 auto fuel.

While I may sympathize with your thought, from what I understand, the reason that corn feed is in short supply is due to drought, not ethanol (though ethanol is a crappy motor fuel because, among other things, it's corrosive). Corn planted for ethanol has not (allegedly) displaced corn grown for food, but has been the result of adding corn acres that had been either in CRP/conservation or on land not formerly used for corn.

As an aside, wow, 100 whole years' worth of natural gas? That's like forever, isn't it? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Location: Finger Lakes Wine Country
jimbo wrote:
Utilization is mostly being held up with useless regulation. Meanwhile, both fuel and food prices continue to rise.


Too bad politics is off limits. A debate over useless regulations could get spirited.

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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Darcie wrote:
jimbo wrote:
Da Bull Man wrote:
I vote that they quit putting corn in cars and start feeding pigs! :roll:


Totally agree. 25% of the US corn crop goes up in flames as e 10 auto fuel.

While I may sympathize with your thought, from what I understand, the reason that corn feed is in short supply is due to drought, not ethanol (though ethanol is a crappy motor fuel because, among other things, it's corrosive). Corn planted for ethanol has not (allegedly) displaced corn grown for food, but has been the result of adding corn acres that had been either in CRP/conservation or on land not formerly used for corn.

As an aside, wow, 100 whole years' worth of natural gas? That's like forever, isn't it? ;)


As I understand it, fuel alcohol is mandated, and the fuel needs must be met before the any goes to feed animals. That is what I have heard and read. What I do know is that feed corn prices are at record levels. Seems to me that it is time to suspend the food for fuel program until there is an abundance of corn.


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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Thought #2. Natural gas reserves estimates vary widely depending on who is doing the estimating and the accompanying agenda, as does oil.
The point is that it makes little sense to use a foodstuff for fuel or import our needs when we have a large ready supply. Any land that is suitable for alcohol corn will grow food corn. Now e 15, a third more alcohol added to auto fuel is coming. Can't help the cost of food.

The next time you fill up your car, dwell on the thought that nearly 10 bucks of the cost is going for an additive we don't need, which reduces your mileage around 10% and is not good for your engines, and at the same time, the cost of food is going up due to diverting corn to fuel.

Aside from the net effect on food costs, this is a political policy argument, and this may not be the place. Look for Prime loin in Cryovac, already nearly doubled in the past year,to rise far more. Bacon where I live has doubled, as have most meats. Look for further increases.


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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Here is another thought...if we all cut back our meat consumption, we wouldn't need to devote as many resources to raising meat. I think it's pretty clear that Americans, at least, eat way more meat than we need (we also waste A LOT of food, meat and otherwise). Land resource use was the main factor in me choosing to be a committed vegetarian for several years. I am not overly concerned about the price of meat going up because that may make people choose to eat less meat, which is probably a good thing. I ate no meat the 8 days my husband was away recently (not even bacon!) and I really didn't miss it. (Oops, I lied, I had real bacon bits on my potato soup.)

I try to steer clear of ethanol gas (pun intended); as I stated before I don't think it's a good fuel for most vehicles. There is a station here that carries a non-oxygenated (i.e. no ethanol) gasoline. There is a label that states something about it being for older cars only, but luckily I can't read the small print.

Another thought - if we weren't mandating ethanol for gasoline our oil needs would go up, driving up the price of oil, which as we know affects the price of food. Caveat - I do not know how the price of fuel is affected by the ethanol, which I understand is pretty expensive to produce.

Too much thinking for one night - time for drinking.


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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Location: Portland, OR
So ...

The ethanol program was inaugurated by the Carter administration during the OPEC-caused gas shortage. At the time, the US had a large grain crop surplus which we otherwise had to destroy in order to prop up prices, so the plan made a lot of sense. It didn't hurt that President Carter was from a farm state and had strong support in the Corn Belt.

Warp forward 20 years, and the corn-ethanol mandate by the Federal government is the main price support for keeping prices on a no-longer-surplus corn crop high. As a result, three to five entire states (Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, etc.) will switch their electoral votes based on who supports corn ethanol. Therefore no presidential candidate, of either party, can even suggest ending it. Nor will Congress, since they can always swap votes for corn ethanol supports.

Yet today environmentalists oppose corn ethanol, because it is less energy-efficient, and produces more carbon, than gasoline. Sugarcane ethanol from South America *is* energy-efficient, but ... of course ... the US prohibits its import.

This means that Jimbo is right in that corn ethanol does contribute to high prices for animal feed, and thus meat. Darcie is also right in that the drought has a much larger effect; we basically lost the entire US corn crop from 2012. (Of course, global warming is just a myth.)

Not that I have an opinion or anything.

(p.s. the "enough natural gas for 100 years" is only if we consume it at the current slow rate. if we start substituting it for other fuels, we'll consume it much faster ...)

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 Post subject: Re: I refuse to believe this...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:02 am 
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Location: Six Shooter Junction, Texas
Sounds like we need to start working on CNG technology.

Darcie...I refuse to cut back on bacon...I'll just die a happy fat man! :lol:

(With less $$) ;)

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