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It may be that the population of immigrants is different, or that the authorities are less invested in headline creating arrests.
When you listen to owners in the industry rail against increases in the minimum wage and realize that FOH wages have been stagnant for over two decades, that health care costs are rarely covered and sick days frowned on, etc. etc., the use of staff who won't put up a fuss and who are willing to do the hardest work for the longest hours becomes understandable. Also, many legal workers refuse to do the work. I've had homeless guys by the side of the street turn down a dishwashing position because it was too hard.
I know how hard it is to make a profit in the industry. I hate that so often that profit is made from the toil of people who have little choice.
As for "I can't stand people doing something illegal!", we break all kinds of laws every day. All of us are criminals to some extent. Immigration is geared toward getting "high value" immigrants. However much the Americain economy needs low level workers, telling the desk worker at the embassy that you want to immigrate to become a field hand won't get you past that desk. (try becoming an immigrant to Canada!)
And if you don't want to debate policy on a cooking forum, feel free to skip this thread.

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from Wino Discussions about the food industry, government policies (as well as other related policies) certainly qualify as valid discussion points. So, as long as you say it politely - please say it.

"I think the bigots who "got theirs, now want the doors closed" are closed-minded jerks."

So where is the line. I am admittedly new here, and I am not afraid to discuss any issue, including the amnesity for those who voilate our basic laws. I'm not particularly offended by being referred to as anything other than my screen name,

Jimbo,

My comment was not directed at you. I'm sorry if you thought it was. And, if I crossed a line, I apologize.

I am only speaking from the experience I have. I'm not only a chef, but also involved in the financials of the restaurant, so I'm intimately aware of expenses. All restaurants (whether hiring illegals or not) live and die on two costs: food and labor. And in fine dining and resorts those economics are even less favorable because of the increased amount of labor and food cost to run such operations. The simple fact is that in many areas of the country many Americans shun the low wages and hard work of a restaurant kitchen. Most restauranteurs would prefer all of their employees be legal, and I know of many who work to help their employees gain citizenship.

I think many points have been made, and I'll refrain from making any more.

Amy

So here's an interesting contrast: Norway. Norway doesn't have much of an immigrant popluation (pretty much confined to the oil industry), and every citizen is guaranteed a middle-class income. The drawback to this is that any restaurant in Oslo costs between $50 and $120 per person to dine out, in relative local income terms. So going out is strictly a special occasion thing for Norweigans. Oslo has a lot fewer restaurants than American cities of a similar size.

There are some ameliorating conditions to that -- high food costs and high VAT -- but overall it seems pretty clear that not just profit but affordablity and variety of dining out is based on the use of very cheap immigrant labor.

This is in contrast to the agriculture industry, where farm labor costs are only about 5% of retail costs, and they could afford to pay more without much effect on store prices.

Solutions? I don't know. I quite enjoyed the $15/person fancy brunch I just ate.


(P.S. this thread is a bit of an experiment. As you know, on TOBB politics were strictly prohibited. I wanted to see if we could discuss food politics here without things going off the rails. So far, it's OK ... )

Hi,

We have had some interesting restaurant "raids" in Springfield, Il; four Mexican restaurants closed in the last year. One large Mongolian BBQ was staffed by 20 unpaid Chinese "slaves" who were living in two one bedroom apartments. Human tragedy...

Cargill Meat Solutions (pink slime) Corp. has a huge local pork processing plant that is only open due to the tenacity and grit of their immigrant workers. Our citizens will not do that kind of work for double the wages that they are paid. They get deported if they get arrested for being drunk or just for speeding; they are not considered "criminals" by their employers.

My son in NYC had managed an Italian restaurant that was strictly cash; cash for the food and for the employees. His Brooklyn restaurant went "on the books" about 6 months after opening. The employees were asking where they got a social security number. He is about to open another restaurant that will be fully on the books from day one.

Go and watch "A day without a Mexican".

Tim

It's not just the restaurants. In NY it's common for workers to gather on a particular corner waiting for trucks to pull up and take them to whatever work needs doing. In Huntington LI they didn't want people loitering on the corner, so built them a building to wait. When NY was blanketed under a blizzard 2 years ago a pair of men went door to door in my brother's neighbourhood offerering to shovel driveways for a minimal fee, which was a blessing for many seniors.

Not sure how prevelant the issue is here in Canada, although my parent's neighbours were here illegally (visistor's visa that ran out and he tried and tried to get a permanent status to no avail), and after 6+ years of living here, working as a landscaper on the books, paying taxes and having 3 kids all born here, they were deported to El Salvador. Broke our hearts to watch them go. With the current system here they had no chance to qualify as legal immigrants since he technically had no skills. And many of the skilled immigrants wind up in menial positions for which they are not suited since they don't have Canadian work history.

My daughter is waiting tables in Switzerland this summer and making 25 bucks an hour (service is included so her tips are not huge but she gets to keep them all). The food is more expensive, in line with Norway for a decent place so people do not go to restaurants as often. When you do go out, they generally just have one seating and it is a long affair. Swiss produce is more expensive than imported because the subsidies given to the farmers are passed on to the consumer. There is not much poverty though, especially for working people.

I have a hard time getting my head around all the ins and outs of immigration but I don't see how any program can work without legalizing at least a portion of these people. Also I am very thankful, by accident of birth, that I do have a legal way of providing for myself and my family and can't even imagine the desperation these people must feel to leave everything they know and put themselves in grave danger to pick some lettuce in what is often slave conditions. Like Jimbo though, I don't think the solution should be an illegal one. It is very confusing, so glad I am not king of the world.

Mary

You know, I like that I can eat out very inexpensively. But it has has also bothered me; fundamentally, it doesn't really make sense to be able to eat out so cheaply. Something has to give. I expect the Norwegian cost of eating out is closer to the 'real' (societal costs, etc) of eating out. And I'll bet they are also healthier for it.

Americans/Canadians eat out a stunning amount. I doubt that is sustainable or sensible. I suspect that for society to thrive as a whole, we need to pay those servers/preparers/farmers a whole lot more. Of course, if we paid them a decent wage, that would solve the whole illegal immigration problem outright. It really is about keeping costs low. When society is prepared to pay the real costs of their food, the illegal immigration problem will solve itself. Don't see it happening anytime soon; the lure of cheap food is too strong.

As a percentage of income, food is 1/2 of what it used to be. Insane.

Actually, I just thought of a contrast to my Norway example: Italy. Restaurants in Italy are surprisingly affordable -- cheaper than the US in many cases -- yet service staff, at least, earn a good living and they don't have a tipping system. The secret here appears to be the opposite of Norway, which is that in Italian cities everyone eats out all the time, ensuring a constant flow of money into every trattoria and cafe. I think that's the difference, anyway.

I also don't know how much the dishwashers make.