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| Sous vide an Botulism? http://cookaholics.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1774 |
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| Author: | TheFuzzy [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sous vide an Botulism? |
I was answering questions on cooking.stackexchange.com, and read this one which kind of alarmed me: http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questi ... ared-foods The danger here appears to be when someone par-cooks sous vide and then stores the packet in the fridge (not freezing) for long periods. Unfortunately, I know of gourmet markets which do exactly that, selling people premade sous vide packets out of the deli fridge. How long do restaurants keep sous vide packets around? Amy? |
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| Author: | Amy [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
Longer response than my left hand has the patience to type. You can absolutely control for food-borne ilness in SV. you simply need to follow correct techniques. Paul can fill in details. Amy |
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| Author: | pepperhead212 [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
I have often wondered about those temps that sous vide is done at, since this is often in that danger range 40-140ยบ) we have heard for many years about cooling hot foods when refrigerating them. So how can cooking something sous vide be safe? Technically, about the only way would be if something were sealed in the package, then irradiated to sterilize it, and we know this does not normally happen. |
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| Author: | jim262 [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
Re: Botulism. There seems to be an assumption that sous vide is an anaerobic environment. Do sous vide vacuum sealers develop enough negative pressure to purge all the oxygen? Any credible studies been done on the subject? |
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| Author: | Paul Kierstead [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
I'll do the short answers first, then drag up some resources later. First, I'll say that SV is very very safe *if* you follow the guidelines. A person should not be 'winging' SV recipes unless they understand the basic guidelines. SV was originally developed (quite a while ago) to allow cook-chill-hold for goodly periods, and it is certainly feasible. There are buts. On cooking temperatures, if you cook below 55 C, then the cooking should be under 4 hours. All long cooks are generally done at or above that. Cooking below 55, especially well below, does increase the risk of food-borne illness in the same manner as sushi, etc. do. Care in ingredients and preparation lower the risk, but do not eliminate it. This is generally true for most food preparation. The short answer is that botulism is not normally a problem at all for SV. Things are normally cooked to sterilization and the environment isn't that oxygen-free. For lots of good info, Baldwin's section on food safety is very good and very thoroughly researched. |
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| Author: | TheFuzzy [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
Paul, Looks like Baldwin covers this issue pretty well. In the article you link, he recommends only keeping chilled pouches for 5 days at household fridge temperatures, and for somewhat longer in a walk-in. He also recommends chilling par-cooked pouches rapidly, in icewater; letting them cool on the counter is apparently a really bad idea. Which does again make me wonder about that gourmet deli; they didn't go to any particular lengths to stress that the pouches they were selling should be cooked within 5 days. It also suggests to me that we can expect to see a bunch of home sous-vide self-poisonings next year, as we have in the past seen suicide-by-badly-canned-tomato. Thanks! I knew about his site but didn't know about that particular page. |
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| Author: | Paul Kierstead [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | paul kierstead |
I don't think the 5 days is abnormal; cooked food should be consumed in a reasonable period of time. I don't think the sv times are short, and for the colder fridges, they are quite long. I would be very surprised to see increased incidents. Consider something like traditional duck confit, which is very anaerobic and kept for long periods but very little incidence of problems. Botulism is nothing to take lightly, but having an sv pouch in your fridge for a couple of weeks is a long way from a jar on your shelf for months. |
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| Author: | JesBelle [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
Isn't confit usually cooked though? As I understand it, the botulinum toxin is fairly delicate. It's the spore that thinks it's Rasputin. |
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| Author: | pepperhead212 [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
Here's what concerns me when I see articles written like this - the last paragraph: Disclaimer: All of the information contained in this guide is intended for educational purposes only. Douglas Baldwin makes no guarantees, warranties or representations, implied or express, as to the appropriateness, timeliness, accuracy, completeness, and/or usefulness of any of the information in this guide. There may be mistakes in the information presented. Douglas Baldwin assumes no risk or obligation for your use of this guide. |
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| Author: | Paul Kierstead [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sous vide an Botulism? |
I'd challenge you to find someone who is willing to accept liability for their food safety advice. |
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