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 Post subject: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:47 am 
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Let the arguments begin!

http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/20 ... heap-wine/

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Caveat: I know next to nothing about wine. So my comments are likely not worth a hoot - but that's never stopped me before, so...

Even though the article tries to equate Two Buck Chuck to Wonder Bread and brings in the evils of corporate farming, it still comes off as being written by an effete snob who knows better than you. I think the author mischaracterizes the point of the Slate article, which I find to be: most people can't tell the difference between the $5 bottle and the $15 bottle, so they should just buy the $5 one. The SF Gate writer makes the Slate article out to be: there is no difference between a $5 bottle and a $15 bottle. Those are not the same arguments.

The points about "Big Wine" and the environmental effects of purchasing a cheap wine are good and I suppose I hadn't really thought about that. (Great, another thing to worry about.) But again that's not the point of the Slate article.

I don't drink wine every night. I can't afford it - even at $5 a bottle. $5/bottle times 4 nights (assuming we don't finish the bottle eacdh night - ha!) would be almost 20% of my weekly grocery budget. So we drink 2-3 bottles a month. Mostly wine that is okay, sometimes even good - but I'm not looking for a transcendental experience. Okay is fine with me. Wine people probably don't get that.

When I go to the wine shop I wander around the aisles, reading the descriptions and realizing how little I know. There are just so many different producers, varietals, regions - it's overwhelming. And often when I blindly stumble onto something good, the next time I go to the store it's gone. So I buy what's on sale. Or sometimes even which label strikes my fancy :shock: (recently purchased Chateau Le Gay Bordeaux because I figured it would be suspicious to our conservative friends. I'll tell them it's part of the 'agenda'. And it was on sale.)

So I have no use for wine snobs telling me I can't possibly be getting a good wine for $5. I don't care. And sometimes I even buy Wonder Bread. :evil: (Well, actually I don't. But I did eat at Burger King yesterday morning because I was in a hurry and out of bacon. So sue me.) I just don't find the "how can you drink that swill?!" argument persuasive. After all, Wonder Bread still flies off the shelves and I think it tastes like wallpaper paste!

FWIW, in my wine fridge now I have a $70 bottle of wine (special occasion), a couple of $12-15 bottles, a $5 bottle, some local beer, and a lone Corona. And I will enjoy it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Both these guys are an embarrassment when it comes to wine writing. The SF Chronicle writer glosses over the economic realities that lead consumers to cheap wine. He does not close the loop in his explanation of industrial wine production vs. wines “with a true sense of origin and craft” except to declare industrial wines the “equivalent of a Big Mac or Velveeta”

His treatment of the American wine industry as a monolith that “hurt itself by portraying cheap wine as fancier than it is” is not whole lot less silly than his declaration that Slate’s article “makes an ongoing case for ignorance.”

For its part, the Slate article begins with a pretty compelling economic case for cheap wine. From there, his premise unravels as he sets out prove that American wine drinkers are interchangeable and that none of us can “reliably pick out expensive wines in a blind taste test” so we should all spend the rest our lives thinking two-buck chuck is as good as it gets. Anybody who has the slightest understanding of wine, the wine industry, or wine consumers knows that it is not that simple. Perhaps the article is intentionally provocative, or perhaps the author really is as obtuse as he comes across in print.

If this were round one of a boxing match, I would give the round to Slate’s Brian Palmer. The SF Chronicle’s Jon Bonné should have been able score an early KO, but wasn’t able to land a single punch.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:31 am 
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As the wine editor for the SF Chronicle, the writer's livelihood depends on people spnending $15 and up per bottle.

Europeans don't mind spending 2 or 3 euros for a bottle of wine because the selection and quality isn't bad at that price point, not simply because that's "bottom shelf bulk wine." (Our record is under 1 euro for a liter sani-pak of table red in Venice).

I read the point of the Slate article to be, if you can't tell the difference, and a lot of people can't, save your money.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:55 pm 
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Folks,

Oooh, nice! Love the discussion.

So I read the current spat over cheap wine quality to be one of taking ideas to their illogical extreme. This started with a fairly extensive study (6000 tastes by 200 tasters) whose results suggested a couple of things:

1. The association between price and quality in wines is very loose.
2. Inexperienced drinkers often prefer "cheap" wines to "better" ones.

(1) is certainly true. I've both experienced $100 bottles of wine which were crap, and $5 bottles which were unexpectedly good. Also, within the $10 to $35 range, any vintner can tell you that prices are pretty much arbitrary; they set a random price in that range and see if it sticks. If it sells out, they raise the price; if it doesn't, they lower it. So one can assume that wines in that range are generally identical in quality. Above the $35 price, increases in wine quality become geometrically smaller where they exist at all. That is, a $180 wine is only 10% better than a $90 wine, if at all.

In many cases, high-priced wines are expensive not because they are good, but because of exclusivity and limited supply.

This should not be a surprise to anyone; it's pretty much true of every consumer product there is for which there is a wide range of prices. Cheese. Clothing. Major appliances.

I also believe (2) to be true, having seen what my friends who "aren't wine drinkers" prefer to drink.

However, in fits of iconoclasm, many writers irritated with the Wine Snob Establishement take this set of arguments to its illogical and unsupported extreme, saying that there is zero association between price and quality, and that not even experienced wine drinkers can tell the difference between Two-buck Chuck and Calera. Which is nonsense, but folks who never felt comfortable with fine wine in the first place eat it up (drink it up)?

Naturally enough the fine winos will lash back at this extreme form of wine populism, pointing out that there is a difference between Sutter Home and Unti which even a neophyte can taste. I agree with Jim, though, that the Chronicle's counter-argument is weak and full of holes.

Darcie, you'll be glad to know that the majority of wine drunk in the "wine drinking countries" (France, Italy and Spain) is less than $5 per bottle. And not because it's terrible factory wine as Jon Bomme alleges; it's because sales volume and lack of taxes allow Europeans to produce moderate quality wine much cheaper than in the USA. I personally drink fine, expensive wines ... around $1500 worth per year ... but I *also* drink lots of $6 to $8 bottles of wine and even some $5's from TJ's (particularly the Spanish ones this year).

As Americans continue to drink more wine, expect to see the price of a moderate quality bottle of wine continue to fall.

Also, Jon Bomme's argument about the environmentalism of premium wines is equally specious. Some premium wines are more environmentally responsible, and 2-buck Chuck is certainly not. However, it really depends on the individual winemaker; I've seen "bionatural" wines for $8, and Kendall-Jackson (to pick a name) used to be legendary for pesticide abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:04 pm 
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I taste and if I like it I drink it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:23 pm 
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I found an article posted today at New York Cork Report with a wine writer's take on Jon Bonné's SF Chronicle article. Evan Dawson was a bit more impressed than I was.

Quote:
Cheap vs. Quality: Is Wine Different?

By Evan Dawson, Managing Editor

Last week I read the San Francisco Chronicle's Jon Bonne's outstanding takedown of cheap, bulk wine. I sent it to a few friends who are marginally interested in wine, but occasionally gripe that wine is too elitist. I thought Bonne's piece was direct and, if you pardon the pun, on the money.

But a friend sent a reply that had me thinking. Here's the full email:

Evan

Nice piece by Bonne, but there's one thing he leaves out. He writes about wine as if it's the same as burgers or cars. Basically, he makes it seem like you can easily distinguish between a cheapo and a high-end product in each category. Now, that's certainly true with cars. And that's true with a lot of food. I used to love me some McDonald's, but now it makes me sick. On the other hand, a high-quality burger from choice meat is a thing of beauty!

So it's easy for even a novice to see the difference. I just think wine is different. Not too long ago I bougtht a 97 pointer for a price that I didnt want to tell my wife. And I bought a $9 87 pointer. I won't lie - they were both good. But I can't tell you that I found an obvious difference. And that $9 wine is made in huge quantities!

So is there something wrong with me? I'm not sending this email to bring wine down. I'm just raising the possibility that this writer (and a lot of writers) fail to realize that for most people, a lot of wines taste basically the same. Especially red wine.

Now, what to make of this?

First of all, I'm struck by his comparison of the mass-produced 87-point wine (disclaimer: I'm not a fan of point scores and wish he would have left that out of the discussion) and the expensive wine that he bought. My first guess is that each wine had a heavy dose of oak. Which is fine; people tend to like oak.

This isn't meant to become just another diatribe against oak. But that email led me to think of the most important advantage that the artisans have over the bulk producers: the source material. When a high-end restaurant makes a great burger, they tend to use excellent quality meat. McDonald's, on the other hand, uses CAFO-sourced meat, or aging dairy cows. So what does the fast food chain do? They load up the meat with salt, which is a flavor most people like and allows them to cover up the fact that their source material isn't very good.

And what does a bulk wine producer do with overcropped, mediocre-at-best fruit? He buries it in oak. Oak is the salt of the wine world.

Now, can you imagine going to a high-end restaurant, ordering an expensive burger, and finding it buried in salt? What would be the point of all that salt? Why mask the flavor of the beef? Yes, there are other ingredients on that burger. But they're not simple seasonings.

So why, then, are the high-end wine producers slapping the equivalent of a pound of salt on their wines? They already have the greatest advantage possible: They have great fruit! Their choice of oak is making their wine taste more like the bulk stuff. I'm not saying it makes their wine taste like bulk wine; I am saying, however, that it moves the needle more in that direction, even if faintly.

Do I think that most red wines taste roughly the same for novice drinkers? Assuming they're not flawed, I can see why my friend would say so. But no, I don't. I think most oak tastes the same, and too often these days, the fruit is not allowed the spotlight. If the fruit were championed and protected, casual consumers like my friend would have no doubt about the difference between plonk bulk wine and the wines produced from the world's top vineyards.

To some degree, this is oversimplifying things. Great fruit can stand up to new oak, and integrate the flavors and aromas. But if you read James Suckling's tasting notes on some of the top 2009 Bordeaux, you'll find that those wines - which are supposed to be from one of the great vintages ever - come off sounding like hot fudge sundaes. Dark chocolate! Milk chocolate! Cocoa powder! A cherry on top! So even when we want to believe the best wines have seamlessly folded the oak in, we're often distracted by what that wood is doing.

This is not a perfect argument. There are flaws, and sure, I'm being provocative. I wouldn't take all wine out of oak. Absolutely not. I recognize the value in texture and structure that comes from time in wood. But do I think it's being overdone? Yes.

Part of the reason my friend had to hide his purchase from his wife was because elements like 100% new oak make wine more costly to produce, and that cost is passed on to consumers. A wine aged in more neutral oak could see the price come down for consumers, all while allowing the greatest attribute in the producer's arsenal - the fruit - to shine with less obstruction.

Regardless, I recommend that anyone who hasn't read Jon Bonne's piece to check it out. Keep it handy for friends who say there is no different between cheap and expensive wines. And maybe, if we're lucky, that difference won't be so subtle in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:05 pm 
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See, I knew someone would validate my distaste for heavy oak.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:12 am 
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Hi,

Here is the Slate article that started the discussion: (Link to Slate)

There are some valid points in this article like, "laymen actually prefer cheaper wine....". This seems obvious. It is probably also true that laymen prefer colby cheese to Cabrales."

It is also true that Trader Joe's has a large selection of reasonable wines for under $5. Their limitations (to an eonophile) make these wines approachable and attractive to the general public. Many of these wines lack flavor intensity (heavier grape production), body (ABV%), and varietal character (minerality, tannin, grassiness, fruit). Most are really decent values.

Pricing differences between markets is incredibly wide. Lindeman's wines sell for $4.05 per bottle in our markets. Santa Marghareta Pinus Egregious sells for $26.

I purchased a case of 12 Wine Advocate 90 point wines for $120 last week. One of my neighbors buys cases of 93 point wines at $33 per bottle. He serves tasteless Filet Mignon for dinner at his house to eat with my Spanish Garnacha. I serve him $3.99 USDA Choice flat iron steaks with a flavorful veal reduction. He brings an intense cabernet.

The problem with rating points is that much of the tastings are not double or triple blind and conducted by experts. My blind tasting group never picked wines ($10- $35) in cost order.... When a new host insisted that we didn't need bags, six wines lined up in cost order and the group never met again!

If you like it, drink it.

Tim


Last edited by Kathy's Pete on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fixed broken link to Slate article


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap Wine: the Winos Strike Back
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:25 am 
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TheFuzzy wrote:
See, I knew someone would validate my distaste for heavy oak.

The main reason I quit drinking Chardonnay. I don't want wine to taste like I'm licking someone's wet deck.

Slight hijack - went to a local winery yesterday on my way to pick up a free-range local turkey (usually you can watch them wandering around the farm except right now they are all wandering into the trucks to go to the processing plant LOL). Anyhoo, the winery has a few estate grown whites that were pretty good - very fruit forward, with a lot of citrus and even mango notes. A bit on the sweet side but since I like rieslings that works for me. I forget which grapes they were growing but they were unusual varieties (Minnesota does not have what you would call a ideal climate for viticulture). Their reds were a blend of estate and imported grapes. The winemaker chooses lesser used varietals (frontenac and a couple I hadn't even heard of) for the blends which makes them interesting. A lot of them needed more structure but overall they were decent. I couldn't help but think of this thread when I was doing the tasting. The wines were mainly priced between $13 and $17, and after tasting 19 wines I bought six bottles. The sacrifices I make to help out the local economy. :D


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