Cookaholics Bulletin Board

Cookaholics Bulletin Board

Shop, cook, eat, drink, post, repeat.
 
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:44 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:52 am
Posts: 1140
Location: Kansas City
I think you can do anythng you want with a recipe. It's your house, your kitchen. But if it has anything in it the original recipe didn't have, call it something else because it's not Caesar's salad unless you follow his recipe.

I made CI's Baked Ziti the other evening and DH had only a small portion. Why? Because everybody knows Italians don't use cottage cheese in ANY of their dishes.

fitzie


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 1403
Location: Six Shooter Junction, Texas
Paul Kierstead wrote:

Because it depends on an authority figure to define what is authentic. People who tell me that a dish is not authentic almost invariably have assigned themselves the role of authority figure (or interpretation of it), but I see no reason at all why I should accept that. Who made them ruler of classification?


To which I offer:

CASI
http://www.chili.org/rules.html

ICS
http://www.chilicookoff.com/Event/event_rules.asp

House Concurrent Resolution No. 18, 65th Legislature, Regular Session (1977)
http://www.shgresources.com/tx/symbols/dish/

And me…


TEXAS JAILHOUSE CHILI:

The actual recipe the Texas legislature mandated be followed in the prisons throughout the state. No onions. No beans. No tomatoes. Like sour cream, chopped raw onion, shredded Longhorn-style cheese, and sliced jalapenos, those are fixins' served to the side and added to the chili tableside by those who want to gild the lily.


I think we could all agree that the below recipes reflected in the below books could be updated using modern ingredients, however…history is history. Not to be changed…it is what it is accepted or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Cookery

1742: The Compleat Housewife, a British cookbook used extensively in Colonial America, but edited to exclude recipes with unavailable ingredients.

1772: The Frugal Housewife, Susannah Carter. An English-cookery based book that excluded American ingredients.

1805: The Art of Cookery Made Plain and Easy, Hannah Glasse. A cookbook originating in England; it was most popular in 1776, and the American version was published in 1805.

1824: The Virginia Housewife, Mary Randolph. Another English cookery-based book.

1827: The House Servant’s Directory, Robert Roberts. One of the first books published by an African American. Sparse cooking information, but a unique insight into the work ethic of early America’s domestics.

1832: The American Frugal Housewife, Lydia Maria Child. This was a “must” for brides of the mid-1800s.

1839: The Kentucky Housewife, Lettice Bryan. Native American, European and African recipes for cooking in a hot climate.

1847: The American Family Receipt Book, H. Phelps, Pub. This is a collection of 500 recipes with a native approach to food, plus information on such things as reviving tainted meat, ridding the house of rats, and how to jump out of a wagon.

1851: Miss Leslie’s Directions for Cookery, Eliza Leslie. One of the most influential cookbooks of the 19th century.

1854: The American Home Cook Book, an American Lady. Includes carving instructions and illustrations of cooking equipment.

1858: Miss Beecher’s Domestic Receipt-Book, Catharine E. Beecher. Aimed at the average homemaker, with information to make work easier and more economical.

1861: A Plain Cookery Book for the Working Classes, Charles Elme Francatelli. More than 240 recipes devised by the late chef to Queen Victoria.

1876: Centennial Buckeye Cook Book, Ohio State University Press. Considered the most important cookbook to have originated in Ohio in the 19th century.
1883: Boston Cooking School Cook Book, Mrs. D.A. Lincoln. Founder and first director of the famous cooking school, Lincoln’s cookbook was a foundation of the home economics movement.

Clearly a topic that invokes emotion among those who are passionate about such things, I also believe what goes on in the privacy of one’s kitchen or bedroom is one’s own bidness…just don’t try to convince me that it is either totally acceptable or “normal”.

A posting on two or three websites of chili purists could easily increase our BB membership threefold but would invoke a response similar to that lil book burning incident this week in Afghanistan and the Editors / Moderators would hate me forever. :o :shock: :lol:

Now…I’m off to create a brand new Canadian Bacon recipe.. :lol:

_________________
To do is to be [Descartes] To be is to do [Voltaire] Do be do be do [Sinatra].


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 2305
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
vegetarian chili, anyone? :o :lol: :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:45 pm
Posts: 1531
Location: Ottawa, ON
The problem, Frank, is that they are only authorities in their own sphere. Chili goes beyond Texas, and their legislature (have you seen some of the crap passed? they are not inherently authoritative). And competitive rules for dance do not define what qualifies as dance no more then competitive rules for Chili defines Chili. American Idol has rules. Does anyone not meeting them not qualify as a singer (or at least potential idol)?

And, again, the historical argument is silly. Historically a left handed happy man would be a sinister gay man. Try that out sometime. History is history, but it is not prescriptive.

The concept of a "Master Recipe" is almost always flawed. Almost all traditional recipes have hundreds, or thousands of variations. But one more variation is suddenly inauthentic?

I think, on the whole, it is somewhat easy to say some is authentic, but not so easy to say something is not authentic. Wolferts work, mentioned by Fuzzy, is a great example. Almost any reasonable person would agree the her recipes are authentic (and very good, too!). However, that does not mean a variation of one of her recipes is not authentic; that is where the problem comes in.

So, sure, the Texas legislature is free to say X is chili. They are not free to say Y is not chili, because they don't own the word. It isn't a brand that can be owned.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:41 pm
Posts: 1884
Location: Near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Da Bull Man wrote:
Paul Kierstead wrote:
Now…I’m off to create a brand new Canadian Bacon recipe.. :lol:


Which oddly enough I've never seen in a grocery store in Canada. Except maybe once, but I can't recall with certainty that it was in Canada. Peameal bacon is everywhere. Canadian bacon...nope.

Just like Boston Butt. My cousins in Boston (where I will be in 2 weeks, woot!) go back to Jersey to buy it. :?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 1403
Location: Six Shooter Junction, Texas
Paul Kierstead wrote:
The problem, Frank, is that they are only authorities in their own sphere. Chili goes beyond Texas, and their legislature (have you seen some of the crap passed? they are not inherently authoritative). And competitive rules for dance do not define what qualifies as dance no more then competitive rules for Chili defines Chili. American Idol has rules. Does anyone not meeting them not qualify as a singer (or at least potential idol)?


To summarize...the only rules that are relevant are one’s own personal rules subject to personal whims, geographical location, which way the wind is blowing, culture, position of the planets, etc...
:roll:

So...it appears that the answer to Jimbo's original question of "What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter." is yes to some, no to others. I can live with that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

To Quote: "Without Traditions our lives would be as shaky as...as...a Fiddler on a Roof."

_________________
To do is to be [Descartes] To be is to do [Voltaire] Do be do be do [Sinatra].


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:45 pm
Posts: 1531
Location: Ottawa, ON
Da Bull Man wrote:
To summarize...the only rules that are relevant are one’s own personal rules subject to personal whims, geographical location, which way the wind is blowing, culture, position of the planets, etc...
:roll:


Um, no, your summary is incorrect (since it was a summary of my words, I get to be the authority of them :) ). It is not some issue of moral relativism. To summarize, Texas does not own the word Chili and does not get to dictate to the world what it means. That isn't "personal whims". You invent something, you put it out there in the world, and it takes on a life of its own (just like all children). Other people make, and have made, chili for quite some time. And Italian food, and lots of other food.


Quote:
To Quote: "Without Traditions our lives would be as shaky as...as...a Fiddler on a Roof."


Authenticity encompasses tradition, but tradition does not define authenticity. We can both tradition and change. Things which are traditional are, almost by definition, authentic. Things which are not traditional can still be authentic (otherwise everything would be stagnant). They are not exclusive. We can have a traditional pasta dishes without tomatoes, or we can have a new fangled one made with tomatoes.

You are taking what is essentially a semantics, or perhaps classification, argument and extrapolating to the loss of tradition. I was arguing nothing of the sort. Arguing we should be accepting of new interpretations is most certainly not arguing we should discard the traditional ones.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 1403
Location: Six Shooter Junction, Texas
Paul Kierstead wrote:
To summarize, Texas does not own the word Chili and does not get to dictate to the world what it means


Consider chili (dish not word) is uniquely Texan and is our culinary “gift” to the world. You may do as you wish with it, but the gift remains in the original form it was when given. Authentic chili is a Texas dish. ;) (There goes that History thing again.)

Paul Kierstead wrote:
Arguing we should be accepting of new interpretations is most certainly not arguing we should discard the traditional ones.


Hats off to Cincinnati for rebranding their own version of chili!

May I send you some back hair?? :lol:

_________________
To do is to be [Descartes] To be is to do [Voltaire] Do be do be do [Sinatra].


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:45 pm
Posts: 1531
Location: Ottawa, ON
Actually, though, I *am* interested in making (and eating!) a dish of chili that would, lets buzz it up, epitomize the classic Texas Chili. What recipe would you suggest? I'm quite fond of chili even if I am wildly accepting of the category and even though I visit Texas at least once a year, I never get to eat 'native' food (outside of mexican (yah, I know, thems fighting words), but the last time I went to some (extremely good) hipster mexican place, which was probably not very traditional but arguably authentic, being based on modern mexico city cuisine :)) but very tasty ). So I'm gonna end up making it myself.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What's Authentic and Does It Really Even Matter.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 1403
Location: Six Shooter Junction, Texas
Paul,

I really do not have a set in concrete chili recipe, my recipe is more based on what is "not" in it that what is in it, I am constantly tweaking my recipe and what was my favorite at one time no longer is. I really liked one I tried a while back and will see if I can dig it up.

God has a real sense of humor, my wife thinks Wendy's chile is the gold standard... :( ...won't touch mine, I think it is way too "soupy" plus it has big ol nasty kidney beans in it...Paul (not you) had his thorn... :lol:

I like a chile you can eat with a fork.

You opened up a new can of worms with Mexican food (which BTW chili is not) I prefer Tex Mex to "most" real Mexican food...we had the decency to rebrand that as required.

_________________
To do is to be [Descartes] To be is to do [Voltaire] Do be do be do [Sinatra].


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum