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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Darcie wrote:
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On the other hand, they are selling more nutritious produce...

Is there any data to back up this claim? Althought I would like to believe it, it would be nice to see some numbers to support it.


There is and there isn't. It kind of depends on which scientists you believe are less influenced by the person signing their paychecks. Do you believe the scientists hired by European socialist governments who want to take away your freedoms by installing nanny states? Or do you believe Monsanto's corporate whores? The Center for Organic Education and Promotion or The Ag-Chem Equipment Company?

Preliminary studies from actual universities, which one would hope are at least reasonably disinterested, do support the idea that organic foods are higher in anti-oxidants and trace minerals, but these seem to be at the "interesting thing that needs further study" stage. Also, no one is saying what those differences mean in terms of actual human health.

Here is a copy of an article by Marion Burros from the New York Times -- link It's at a different web site, mainly to avoid the head-ache of going to the Times' site. The article is a bit dated, but it gives a reasonable over-view of the opposing sides in the debate.

Here's another article at WebMD which outlines the brouhaha over the review done a few years ago at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. link

So, there you go. Nothing conclusive.


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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Holy Cow Jes...if you are not already working for our Government...you should be.

You pretty much agreed, disagreed, and said nothing all while being informative, where you are not Gov. qualified is that you were pleasant while doing it...work on that and your in... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Well, IMO, she is dead on. I took apart the (reasonably publicly) available info and it looks to be a bit of a wash. In a few cases (things eaten raw and maybe close to the ground) there seems to be increased short term health risks from organic stuff due to higher levels of e. coli (well, at least statistically)

You would think human dietary needs and mechanisms would be of such high importance that we would have really put some effort into it by now but alas, it is horribly complex, not typically all that ethical to do proper trials with, and poorly funded because you cannot make a IP protected product from it. So, we know shit if there is an outbreak of it, but otherwise don't seem to know shit.

On the upside, the obesity epidemic is going to cause such serious health issues that it becomes in the interests of government, and maybe even insurance companies if they can get together on it (no free riders) to maybe figure out some more things. Gonna take a while though. Those governments spending more on health care (them socialist nannies, like us up here up north) will likely lead the charge a bit as it is of direct financial interest to them to have a healthier population.


Last edited by Paul Kierstead on Wed May 09, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Da Bull Man wrote:
Holy Cow Jes...if you are not already working for our Government...you should be.

You pretty much agreed, disagreed, and said nothing all while being informative, where you are not Gov. qualified is that you were pleasant while doing it...work on that and your in... :lol:

Funny I feel like a congressperson in that I never seem to get information from anyone other than "interested parties."

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Da Bull Man wrote:
where you are not Gov. qualified is that you were pleasant while doing it...work on that and your in... :lol:

Hey, I work for the government...exactly what are you trying to say? ;)

Thanks for the links, JB. I haven't had a chance to read the articles yet but will do so when I get a chance. I've also wondered about the differences in varieties of things, not just how they were grown. There is probably a noticeable difference in the amounts of vitamins, lycopene, et al. between the many different tomato varieties, for example. And I can't think of anyone willing to fund that kind of research. I take that back - some company *might* so they can make a health claim ("twice as much lycopene as a regular tomato!"). But only if they can patent it, of course, and if their cost/benefit analysis tells them it would be profitable.

I'm willing to take my chances on the e.coli for now. I eat undercooked meat and eggs so why not live life all the way on the edge? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Me, too (e. coli risk wise), but I was just pointing out that the results may not be what intuition would state. I'm up for capitalism, and profit motive (hey, I'm self employed, I like profit), but there are somethings in the greater social good that do not have good 'market forces'. Hard problem to solve some days. Mostly I buy organic because I buy it from small sellers who seriously care about what they grow, so their produce is great. Organic, in those cases, is more an indicator of care (though not 100% reliable). "Big Organic", of course, doesn't care about quality any more then the non-organic, only about the label. Those I don't care so much about, especially since some of the organic pesticides, etc. are pretty nasty. I don't think a label alone cuts it.


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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:49 am 
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Darcie wrote:
Hey, I work for the government...exactly what are you trying to say? ;)



As do I...need I say more?

Point is truth does not lie in feelings or even intellect, both are in constant flux. Neither change truth or facts.

Its thought Lil John Kennedy relied on both, didn't realize he was flying upside down when he pulled "up"...he's dead...

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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:00 am 
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Truth is pretty flexible too, typically having a context. Facts, less so, but even facts have a context. Lots of ifs, whens and buts. Absolute fact is more belief then fact.

I think we are veering off a bit :)


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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:26 am 
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Paul Kierstead wrote:
Truth is pretty flexible too.


I respectfully disagree...it only seems that way. Especially when we don't agree with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Organic AP flour suggestions?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:33 am 
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Well ... I suppose, really, I don't believe in truth. To me, there are facts (which can be difficult to nail down due to context), and from that people derive various bits of truth, but those are just things based poorly or well on facts. And some times, not derived from facts at all, just assertions. "One true god" kind of thing, which is often stated as absolute truth. Truth is, IMO, an opinion. Of course, that is just my opinion/belief, I got no more facts to back up my view on truth then those who believe in it....


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