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Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
http://cookaholics.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3194		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tatoosh [ Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
Jen, my wife, has been making cinnamon rolls for quite some time. She did the dough by hand, kneading until it was the right flexibility and adjusting the flour for the right hydration and stretch. It was a fairly arduous task, given she usually makes 4 or 5 pans of rolls at a time about 12 cups, but with up to 2 more cups of flour added until she hits the right stretch.

So she was happy to see the Kitchen Aid Pro 600 show up. It is rated as a 14 cup machine for AP flour and that is about what her "double batch" of dough ends up being. But since she started using the new Kitchen Aid to knead, her cinnamon rolls have not done well. Generally they don't rise. She runs the machine for 10 to 15 minutes until it starts to get too hot and we smell it overheating.

This surprises me since I've heard it easy to "over-knead" your dough with a KA, but not that it overheats and "under-kneads" doughs. I had talked to Amy about the heat from a KA before. But it really is presenting a problem if Jen does a larger amount that reaches the KA's capacity.

Have any of you had a similar experience with your KA machines? Is there a fix for it? Jen feels like she needs to go back to the hand kneading so she gets a better result for her cinnamon rolls. she likes them to rise up nice and tall. Now they are rather short and dense.

We do change out our yeast, so I don't think that is the problem.
Author:  jim262 [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
No matter what the marketing department says, 14 cups of AP flour is overloading a Professional 600 mixer. Kneading that quantity of dough for 15 minutes will result in sudden and catastrophic failure of your mixer.

If you keep the quantity of flour below 1000 grams, the dough will usually remain within the machines ability to knead to completion and will do it in 6-8 minutes.

Stories of unsuccessful transition to a mixer with a hand recipe are common. I am not sure what the cause is since I do not make much dough by hand, but my experience is that a mixer can knead a batch of dough adequately. There may be a learning curve to get the procedure correct. Something that seems as mundane as adding wet ingredients to dry vs dumping all the dry ingredients on top of the wet can make a significant difference in your outcome.
Author:  Tatoosh [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
Okay ... Wow! Thank you very much Jim262. I have been touting how good it is and she won't have to knead. That she can do her double batch and be fresh as a daisy afterwards. My bad! I am so surprised that there is such a disparity between the advertised quantity it can handle and the actual capacity of the machine.

The very, very last thing we need is a "catastrophic failure". Even a simple annoying failure here, something easily fixed by shipping it somewhere or getting a spare part is a huge fandango here. Note that fandango in this context is neither the lively Spanish dance nor the movie of the same name, but more along the lines of the classic "cluster pluck". ;)

So do other Kitchen Aid machines suffer from this "special disability" to perform to stated specification? Does an Artisan or any of the other 4 to 5 quart machines require similar downsizing in expectations and load? We were planning on selling the machine when we return to the USA. But I don't want to sell it to a "friend" if it is such a doggy and other, smaller machines perform similarly without the price tag involved with the Pro 600.

They do sell KA here, but older 4 and 5 quart machines with 220 volt motors. Since they are roughly $500 a pop or a tad more, I decided a $300 US model with shipping was the way to go. I have some "hunky" step down transformers to handle the 115 volt requirements of our Pro 600. But if it only does what a local machine will do, as impressive as it looks sitting on the counter, it's kind of waste of money.

What higher capacity mixer, without going full on Hobart, do you guys recommend? She does her baking, I am shifting into my pizza mode twice a month now that we have the wood 'n charcoal setup working pretty well. I've heard that the Electrolux DLX or maybe the Cuisinart 7 quart are good? The DLX I've heard a lot of good comments on elsewhere, but seen some overall negative comments in separate forums on the quality of the European maker Electrolux machines in general. Hard to know what is best actually. We are stuck with the KA for the present, but want to know what to do next time for a dough mixer with honest capacity in the "high use home" area.
Author:  Darcie [ Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
In my experience, all KA mixers are wimps when it comes to dough. A single batch of bagel dough in my 5-qt. KA, even though it's an older, Hobart-made model, will overheat it and it just stops cold (heh, heh). I have to break out my trusty Rival (Kenwood) for dough.

I've heard good things about the DLX. If you have frequented the eGullet site at all, there's a big discussion about those and another model that I can't think of right now for larger dough batches.
Author:  JesBelle [ Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
10-15 minutes is a lot of kneading in a machine. I do bagels that long, but not soft doughs.
Author:  MiGirl [ Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
I'd try doing a single batch at a time. It would still be easier than hand kneading. I also think 15 minutes is a long time to knead dough. I do 6-8 minutes with good results. I also have the professional 600 and it has never overheated on me. But, I have never used that much flour in it either.

Love cinnamon rolls!

Laurie
Author:  Emilie [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
I second Laurie's suggestion, Steve -- I made cinnamon rolls all the time in my KA 6 qt. prof. and never had a problem, unless I set the speed higher than 2 or tried to do a double batch of a recipe that makes a lot of rolls in a single batch (e.g., CC Ultimate Cinnamon Buns). When I did a double batch of those the motor got really hot and shut off before it was finished kneading, but was okay once it cooled down. Recently when I was making some dinner rolls, I set the speed to medium (knowing it was a no-no) because a recipe called for it, and I stripped a gear. (Thanks to Jim's advice, it was an easy repair that only required two inexpensive parts. Thanks Jim!)

I've wondered if maybe the "flour power" really comes down to general volume. Like in a cinnamon bun recipe, you've not only got the flour, you've got butter, milk, and eggs. So they can increase the volume by quite a bit. Either way, I also never knead any of my doughs more than 8 minutes or so.

Do you have the same warranty options as those bought/shipped within the U.S.? If so, don't hesitate to take advantage of it. KA customer service can be pretty lame when you're out of warranty, but I've found they are very responsive and don't challenge you on replacements during that first year.

Emilie

p.s. When I stripped the gear on my 6 qt., I upgraded to the 7 qt. KA and so far have loved it. (Am passing the repaired 6 qt. down to my son's fiance.) The 7 qt. has handled double-batches of dough a number of times with no issues at all. Plus it has a 2 year total replacement warranty. So when you're ready to upgrade you might want to throw that one into the pool of candidates even though their 6 qt. hasn't fit the bill for you so far.
Author:  Tatoosh [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
Thank you all very much! Jen and I sat down and read through your responses. Quite an eye opener and we will adjust batches sizes to fit its limits. Jen was surprised to see the knead times and will change to match that more closely. When we come back to the States, I'll be watching for Electrolux in garage sales and Craigs List, I'm pretty sure. I don't hang out in eGullet very often, though I definitely should be visiting it occasionally.
Author:  Kathy's Pete [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
Tatoosh wrote:
They do sell KA here, but older 4 and 5 quart machines with 220 volt motors. Since they are roughly $500 a pop or a tad more, I decided a $300 US model with shipping was the way to go. I have some "hunky" step down transformers to handle the 115 volt requirements of our Pro 600. But if it only does what a local machine will do, as impressive as it looks sitting on the counter, it's kind of waste of money.
Are you dealing with 50 Hz as well? That would contribute to overheating at higher loads. Not that i can recommend a particular fix...
Author:  Tatoosh [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problem with Cinnamon Rolls & Kitchen Aid Mixer
Luckily no, it is 60 hertz here, 220 volts. Step down transformers take the power to 110volts but the hertz remain constant.
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